Tartışma:Babek Hürremi
Konu ekle| Burası Babek Hürremi adlı madde üzerindeki değişikliklerin konuşulduğu tartışma sayfasıdır. Maddenin konusunun genel olarak tartışıldığı bir forum değildir. |
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Babak
[kaynağı değiştir]Babak was a follower of neo-Mazdakism (sect of Zoroastrianism). No relationship with Jewish Khazars who ruled North of Caucasus but occasionaly made incursions. --NP2 07:39, 18 Ocak 2010 (UTC)
- In this area there was war between Turkic Khazars and Arabs. Even the soldiers of Abbasid Caliphate under Bugha’s command were Turks. One of Babak’s commander was Tarkhan. But you had wrote that “there was no turks in Iran at that time”. I think that there was no Iran at that time. Who was Babak ethnicly is disputable, for you can’t delete something with reference.--Melikov Memmed⇒email 08:14, 18 Ocak 2010 (UTC)
Okay if we are going by names, then Babak is a Persian name. So is the name of his mom, “Mahroo”. So is the name of his master and teacher, “Javidan Pur Shahrak”. Second the name of his commanders are Rustam, Adhin, Muawiyyah. Some sources add “Tarkhan”, but they add it to Adhin. Adhin is a Persian name and the sound “dh” does not exist in Turkish (but it does in Shahnameh). Also the etymology of Tarkhan is not Turkish, but it was a title for commanders adopted by different groups. On the etymology of Tarkhan, you can see Clauson’s etymology of Turkish (famous book). Harold Bailey also given an Iranian etymology here. Right now, there is no agreement on the etymology, but it was a general title. Many sources point to Sogdian title or Xiongnu. Just like having the title “Sutlan” or “Shah” or "Khan" does not mean an ethnicity. Tarxan is a major military title and its etymology is not known, but has been used by Iranians, Turks, Mongols, Hungarians.
See etymology here: [1] [2] (note this is a major Turkic etymology dictionary and states that the etymology is unknown).
On the Khazars, they were Jews. Babak Khorramdin was a Khorramdin (Neo-Mazdakite/Zoroastrian sect). Turks did not follow Zoroastrianism/Mazdakism. This is sufficient proof. Zoroastrianism/Mazdakism are Iranian religions. Turks followed a form of Shamanism before Islam. Babak was Mazdakite. As per Bugha, he was not from Azerbaijan but a mercenary of the Caliphate from Central Asia or possibly Khazaria. There was Turkish, Slavic, Berber and Iranians mercenaries for the caliphate, but Mutasim had favored Turks. There is no proof that either Khazars or these mercenaries settled in Azerbaijan (Iran) in any numbers. Khazars made incursions by were defeated ultimately by the Arabs.
Finally, classical Arab and Armenian sources have called Babak a Persian, but none of them have called him a Turk. There would be a controversy if there are classical sources that state Babak was a Turk. But if there isn't any, then there is no argument. Sources close to the time of Babak have called him Persian. Else if we ignore major scholars and all the sources, one can say he was Armenian, Assyrian, Greek, Arab or anything then. We have to go with the best sources and opinion of majority of scholars (specially from Oxford and Princeton). Also there was an Iran but it was occupied. Wikipedia works with reliable sources. Dr. Mahmud Efterkharzadeh is not a known historian and even the publish year of his book is not given. Also no direct quote is given from the book. Mark Whittow and Bernard Lewis are well known historians. If you have equally reliable historians (note historians and not anything else) that claim Babak as a Turk, then please provide a proof. Mark Whittow: [3] Oxford Historian Bernard Lewis: [4] Islamic era Historian from Princeton But the Dr. Mahmud Eftekharzadeh, no page is given nor even the year the book was published and no academic credentials. Wikipedia works by sources that are stronger and academic value (university level and published). If something is controversial, it is not up to users to decide what is controversial. Rather, you have to find a source that states “it is controversial” and then find equally reliable sources (Mark Whittow and Bernard Lewis) to show it. Preferably one that is from a university Professor from a presitigious one like Oxford and Princeton. Thank you--NPP2 17:29, 18 Ocak 2010 (UTC)
Well my Turkish is not good, but I hope you follow neutrality and also other users read this and judge for themselves.
Babekin kökeni
[kaynağı değiştir]Babek hakkında bildiğiniz üzere çok kaynak yoktur ama babekin ölümünden sonra abu Hanife dineweri onun Ebu muslim horasaninin soyuna dayandırır aynı şekilde "djafhar mohamed sahnoun" "Les chi'ites" adlı eserinde bu bilgiyi doğrular
İbni khallikanın yazdığı Abu muslime karşı yazılan onu aşağılamak üzere yazılan şiire bakarsanız "hain olan senin Kürt atalarındı" diye bir ibare geçer
1234 anonim Süryani kroniğinde babek Ebu muslimin soyuna bağlanmaz direk Kürt olarak kabul edilir
Kaldı ki babekin irani dışında olması gibi bişi muhtemel değildir çünkü uğruna savaştığı şey bir kere hamedanlı mazdekin sasani döneminde ortaya attığı bişey uğruna savaşılmıştır
Ben böyle düşünüyorum Babek Kürt kökenlidir